Okay, so we all know that argument.
But my question is, does the tree literally make a sound? Independent of the observer, does it produce a noise as we know it, or is it just vibrating waves or whatever?
And regarding sight: I asked someone if color as we perceive it is a property of reality (example, an apple appears to be red, independent of an observer), and he said yes. Is this true? I thought it was false.
If a tree falls in the forest…?
Philosophically speaking, the question has nothing to do with psychoacoustics; it is a philosophical riddle.
George Berkeley was an early 18th-Century philosopher, - and the phrase "Esse est percipi" ("To be is to be perceived"), is an edict of his ‘Immaterialism’ theory.
Berkely’s ‘Immaterialism’ waxes upon the metaphysical notion that objects may only exist when something perceives them and it from this philosophy which the oft asked question, "If a tree falls in a forest, and no one is there to hear it - does it make a sound?", is rooted in (if you’ll pardon my play on words).
Berkeley’s ’subjective idealism’ has since been entertained by a number of academicians, - and has helped spawn other interesting, and more complex, theories on perceptive realities.
For example, - Here’s a video which explains the gist of one such popular paradoxical experiment in the perception of reality, - called "Schrödinger’s Cat":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EN-jCuV7BoU
As for your query on color perception,…
Whether color is an OBJECTIVE quality (the apple is red because it actually IS red), - or a SUBJECTIVE one (the apple is red because my mental disposition interprets its color as being red) still wouldn’t render the apple ‘unreal’ to an observer of it. Lacking an observer, however, we are faced, yet again, with another type of ‘If a tree falls in the forest…?’ riddle; again with realist vs. nominalist perceptions of reality.
I apologize for the length of this response…
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June 20th, 2010 at 11:51 am
Is there any existence without observation?
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June 20th, 2010 at 12:13 pm
An apple will always absorb all the light waves hitting it except Red which is reflected. It does not matter if someone is present or not, the apple will reflect only the Red light waves.
Same for sound. It will happen whether someone is there or not.
A better argument would be "Does it matter if a falling tree makes a sound if no one is there to hear it."
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June 20th, 2010 at 12:42 pm
sound is a real phenomenon. If you take a loudspeaker and pump 20,000 watts through it, the vibration would push the air so violently, it could knock over a small animal, such as a chimpmunk.
So , even a completely deaf chipmunk would definitely experience the sound, even if he couldn’t hear it.
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June 20th, 2010 at 1:17 pm
These are all natural events like earth-quake, flood, tsunami, volcano, cyclone, etc., in which we have no role to play.
We should only blame our fate when our thinking goes berserk.
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own
June 20th, 2010 at 2:07 pm
Sound IS a vibrating waves. A sound wave is merely the air molecules vibrating at a certain frequency and magnitude (amplitude). And it’s a forest, there are literally hundreds of creatures to perceive such a sound. If you ask me the whole question is stupid.
An apple can’t "appear" independent of an observer. For an object to be there it must be observed being there. While not observed the apple might as well not exist. While observed by a creature that cannot perceive "red" it might as well not be red.
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June 20th, 2010 at 2:13 pm
regarding the first point, i would say that the existence of a wave (in this case, sound) does not depend on the existence of an observer. just because it cannot be heard does not mean that it does not exist.
look at it this way. if you turn on a light in a sealed, unoccupied, unmonitored room, is the room dark? no. just because you cannot see the light does not deny its existence. same way with sound.
sound is not the PERCEPTION of sound waves, it IS the sound waves.
regarding the second: "color" as a word is defined as perception. if a person was raised their whole life being taught that the color that we know as ‘black’ is called ‘yellow,’ then that color is defined by that person’s perception.
however, the scientific definition of color (light reflecting off of objects in different wavelengths…or something like that) is indeed real.
(as for the ‘independent of observer’ part, think about the color blind people. ‘red’ as a color IS dependent on the observer. )
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June 20th, 2010 at 2:36 pm
To answer the first question, yes, it will literally make some kind of sound (which is an audible vibratory wave BTW) - whether we can hear it or not.
As for your second question, I’m of the opinion that color (as we perceive it) is a portion of light that our eyes see. Yes, an apple is red because of the properties of the skin (pigment & so on) and what kind of light is reflected. Our eyes perceive that portion of the light spectrum that is reflected from the object - apple, in this case. But is is a property of reality? I think it is a property of the reality of living in 3 dimensions…so technically, I would say yes as well. I have no idea if I’m right or not, but there it is anyway.
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June 20th, 2010 at 3:23 pm
You have distinguished between noise and vibrating waves. In that case, the tree makes sound but not noise. It is much the same with the apple reflecting light waves but color is in our heads. It all helps us to see that the world, as we perceive it, is in our heads.
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June 20th, 2010 at 4:00 pm
it does make a sound sound happens if there is no observer. if u chop down the tree and ur there it makes a sound so if a tree falls it still makes a sound whether theres an observer or not.
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June 20th, 2010 at 4:41 pm
If a tree falls in the forest…?
Philosophically speaking, the question has nothing to do with psychoacoustics; it is a philosophical riddle.
George Berkeley was an early 18th-Century philosopher, - and the phrase "Esse est percipi" ("To be is to be perceived"), is an edict of his ‘Immaterialism’ theory.
Berkely’s ‘Immaterialism’ waxes upon the metaphysical notion that objects may only exist when something perceives them and it from this philosophy which the oft asked question, "If a tree falls in a forest, and no one is there to hear it - does it make a sound?", is rooted in (if you’ll pardon my play on words).
Berkeley’s ’subjective idealism’ has since been entertained by a number of academicians, - and has helped spawn other interesting, and more complex, theories on perceptive realities.
For example, - Here’s a video which explains the gist of one such popular paradoxical experiment in the perception of reality, - called "Schrödinger’s Cat":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EN-jCuV7BoU
As for your query on color perception,…
Whether color is an OBJECTIVE quality (the apple is red because it actually IS red), - or a SUBJECTIVE one (the apple is red because my mental disposition interprets its color as being red) still wouldn’t render the apple ‘unreal’ to an observer of it. Lacking an observer, however, we are faced, yet again, with another type of ‘If a tree falls in the forest…?’ riddle; again with realist vs. nominalist perceptions of reality.
I apologize for the length of this response…
-
References :
Saint Christopher Walken
Patron St. of Deaf Lumberjacks Ands Color-Blind Apple Orchardists
June 20th, 2010 at 4:55 pm
As far as I know, there was not a single human present… let’s say a couple of million years ago.
And still, the entire universe expanded, pulsated and evolved.
Regardless of our perception (and the control we think we can -or must- have over them) things DO happen.
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June 20th, 2010 at 5:38 pm
If a man rides a horse will he have babies?
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